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[META] Help for new users
Anyone want to help with ideas/suggestions for:
http://answers.unity3d.com/page/newuser.html
I'm trying to assemble a page that we can push people through before they post their first question. (That side of it will require some engineering work, but the content is something we can all work on. This could be a sidebar in the short term.)
Advice for New Users
Unity Answers is a site where Unity users can seek, and receive help. It's expected that new users will ask more questions than they answer. That puts a responsibility on new users to ask sensilbe questions that the more experienced users will be happy to answer.
What's a sensible question?
It's impossible to say what a sensible question is. Examples of non-sensible questions:
a) Asking someone to write some script for you
b) Asking a question before you've done any homework and read the Unity documentation or performed a Google search. (You do know what Google is, right?)
c) Posting questions that contain script code that is not formated correctly. Please see the video here that teaches you about code formating.
d) Asklng a question that has been asked before.
e) Asking a question that is not clear or does not contain enough information to allow someone to help you.
Site Etiquette
There are some rules you will want to follow:
a) If you have fewer than 15 karma points you will need your questions and answers approved before they appear on the site. Don't post the same question multiples times assuming something has gone wrong. Your first question will appear once a moderator has approved it.
b) The site works around Karma points. If someone helps you and provided a good answer up-vote that answer. Similarly, if you get an unhelpful answer, feel free to down-vote it. Your questions will be up- or down-voted in the same way.
c) The site uses comments where people can discuss a question or answer. Do not post comments as answers.
d) Did I say that you'll want to format your code correctly?
e) Don't bump posts. If no-one has answered it's because your question was too vague/confusing. Perhaps close your question and ask one that does make sense.
f) If your question is down-voted or closed by a moderator, don't get mad. Just see it as a way to help you interact more carefully on the site. Just remember that everyone on the site started out as a beginner. Some-one in the community will spend their valuable time helping you out if you make it easy for them.
g) The community may answer your question with a link to "Let me google that for you". That's the way around here we let people know how awesome Google is. It's not meant to be rude.
Just telling user to use Google may not be sufficient, I learnt this trick from @fattie, use Google to search for related question in UA using keyword "answers.unity3d.com collision setup" or "site:answers.unity3d.com collision setup".
We can't force people to do anything. We can close questions, down vote, or decide to not publish posts. All I want is to have a page that people can see, ideally, before they post the first time. If they choose to close their eyes and not read, then they shouldn't complain if their contributions get rejected.
Graham is trying to find a way to make this work.
Yeah but certainly raises the issues, but what we are looking for here is how to resolve those issues, present all the facts clearly and decisively.
As it is with actually learning to program, the ownership then becomes the responsibility of the OP. There is no recourse or wiggle-room for them to complain "I didn't know, you treated me unfairly".
We want a clear precise definition of what Unity Answers is, and how it works, and a single reference point with all the information involved with interacting with this most excellent website. The change is co$$anonymous$$g, it is actually happening right now, people are now aware, it is up to us to keep pushing the facts. Then we can all get on with reading and answering genuine questions.
As it has been said in this post and my post, simply refer the OP to the facts, if you feel inclined to do so then also give advice or links to the documentation and relevant tutorials, and then vote down the question, or mention me in the comments and I will come and have a look and close it if required.
Please help us make sure no information is forgotten for building the New Users FAQs page.
This is an awesome idea, and executed really well. If anyone can honestly think of something that has been forgotten, please leave some information on your perceived problem, and all your suggested solutions to the problem you can foresee.
$$anonymous$$any thanks to everyone for considering this, and wanting to make Unity Answers wholesome again.
=]
That's what the tags are for. $$anonymous$$aybe the importance of tags should be more emphasised.
@LightSource that's what fattie said that we should have sections beginners, normal, advanced sections and only people with enough karma could move them in to normal or advanced sections
Answer by Jeff-Kesselman · Jun 23, 2014 at 03:29 PM
RTFT -- really, there are lots of good tutorials provided by Unity and its fans. You shouldn't be coming here and asking questions until you have mastered at least the most basic skills of using the program.
In terms of "sensible questions" the way I explain it as a moderator is this:
"Unity Answers is not a place for you to come to ask others to write your game for you. Rather, proper use of Answers is when you are trying to write your game and are stumped about a specific issue or approach." If you are looking for scripters to work with you, try looking for collaborators on the forums.
Google it the Unity docs are all on line and searchable by Google and, in general, contain great examples. If I cna solve your problem with a single google, then you didn't do your homework before asking it. If you google it, and then don't understand the docs, come here and ask about them.
In all cases be specific. The more focused your question the better an answer you are likely to get.
On Code:
Please include the entire file when asking why you are getting an error message or why something doesn't work. If you are getting an error message, do not paraphrase, include the entire message exactly as printed by Unity. If you are getting an exception then include the entire stack trace.
I really think that new users should be pointed to read/watch the tutorials in the learn section first and foremost. Half of the questions could be solved (or probably woulnd't be asked) if the user had spent a couple afternoons at the learn section.
I agree with the fact that before asking the question user should spend some time reading manual or watching tutorials from learn section but the fact is that people don't bother reading manual or watching tutorials.
Just look at the fact that how many people read the manual for gadgets or automobiles they buy which they use on daily basis? Then how can you expect those people to read the Unity manual when they are here with a psychology that they will build a game overnight and become millionaire the other night?
I wonder if people even bother reading the instructions page that we are discussing here let alone leave the fact of googling around to find the solution to their problem.
And for those who are sincere enough to do these things they do not even need to ask question most of the time and whey they do ask question, it shows in their question that they have really put efforts towards solving their problem and have chosen to ask question as one of the last resorts.
$$anonymous$$aybe (and here is just a thought) when the user types in a question title and similar question suggestions pop up, there could be tutorials among those suggestions.
Question about a script? Scripting tutorial section suggested. Something like "Have you tried the scripting tutorial section?" as a last suggestion.
Edit: Sent it to Feedback.
This is a perfect example. The user that asked this question doesn't know nothing about coding, C# or JS. It seems that he/she found some code and copied it to a script. This user will probably get stuck with some other simple problem in a few $$anonymous$$utes from now. Spending some time watching/reading the tutorials could do much more for this user than having this question answered.
I'm not saying that the question shouldn't have been answered (the answer was correct), I'm just saying that this question should probably have been rejected (with all my respect for who may have accepted it) and the user pointed towards the learn section.
$$anonymous$$y apologies that I answered that question but I have also added a note in the answer stating,
N.B.: You also might want to learn about basic program$$anonymous$$g first before diving into coding directly. :-)
Now it is up to OP to decide what to do. If he decides to learn then the motto is successful and if not then this cycle of posting such questions and we rejecting them will continue.
Answer by Romano · Jun 23, 2014 at 12:06 PM
I find the tone of the suggestions a little bit cheeky. Unity is a product that people pay for and I don't think anyone, beginner or expert, should be talked down to after they have paid for/ are thinking about buying a product. I understand the moderators frustrations with Unity Answers and the need for there to be control over what questions and answers are committed to the database, but this is the wrong way to go about it. This will only anger and frustrate new users - i.e. this format weighs too heavily in favour of moderators. I'm also not sure how much this page will actually change anyone's mind about the kind of questions they ask - especially non-English speakers who will see a block of text they will have to struggle through and just skip it.
My suggestion is that after asking a question and clicking submit, all users are shown a "Do these Answers answer your question?" page with other answers that sound like they might be right, using the same tags etc, before they hit a final submit button.
I still think the system is flawed and that it'd be better replaced by one where no question is deleted unless the thread has become abusive. That ALL questions are deleted after two weeks unless a moderator commits it to the database after deciding it is worthwhile.
All this deciding whether a question is worthwhile or not just creates bad vibes, a bad user experience, and more hard work for the moderators than is necessary. So while I appreciate that someone's trying to do something about UA being clogged with questions that aren't "worthwhile", I think it's a step down the wrong path.
The site is pretty much handled by the community. Whereas someone may have paid for the Pro version, they haven't paid the community for their help, so of course the help is given on their terms.
If the people asking for help are not willing to do the simple things required of them first then everyone will find that the majority of users will become less and less inclined to help at all, resulting in a totally useless site bogged down with totally useless unanswered questions.
Of course talking down to people is not cricket, but if someone is demanding your help and yet refusing to perform the basics asked of them then they deserve to be talked down to. I'm quite sure this applies to most walks of life, not just UA.
If the site did not favour the moderators, sorry to say, there would probably be no site!
I think, ultimately, the discussion from moderators, users and employees alike cul$$anonymous$$ates in to one fundamental point:
The need to maintain a database of good quality correct information.
The trouble is that UA is looked at as being a general forum, when it's probably quite far from being so.
The ideal is to have a kind of wiki situation where it becomes easy to find your answer: on wikipedia you dont have 1000 different pages on each topic. But you are correct, the layout and presentation of the site doesn't lend itself to fulfilling this model very well, as it looks like a forum :D
I don't want this to get into a meaningless unbalanced discussion
Your feedback is important.
cheeky comment that can't be replied to
Yes, cheek is often unnecessary. Anyone can still post a comment on a closed question.
I've written scripts for people before without complaint.
Out of the kindness our your heart :) I bet they didnt say "I need a script. Give it to me. Do it in c#, you cnut". Believe me, I've seen that.
No one here has the right to say when someone is being lazy. Sometimes people have a gap in their knowledge and have enough on their plate to deal with and just need a helping hand
Its actually quite easy to spot the difference.
(You do know what Google is, right?)" I don't find that funny. And the reference to "let me google that for you" is totally sarcastic and the last thing a frustrated newbie wants to hear
You are right, we are dicks when we do that. It was funny for a while but I think we're over it now.
Don't bump posts
Literally don't comment with "Bump". Just click edit and submit.
Unity is a software that is very easy for new users to get to grips with, has a friendly UI
Common misconception. I struggled with it at first and I'm an Engineer
experienced community members a license to be mean
We don't. We need people like you to keep us in check.
This whole question has arisen because moderators are "bored of deleting stupid questions"
Actually its more about trying to maintain a more concise knowledge base with less repeated and more correct information. Believe me, we are happy to keep getting the $$anonymous$$arma.
I'm totally not trying to debunk your arguments here. They are good and valid. I'm hoping to let you in on how it has got this way, and what we (of course I can't speak for everyone) feel about it. It's tough maintaining a good balance and Status Quo. We mods are just people too :) Respect of feelings is a two way thing :) One thing you should understand from the tone of this QA is that it is a result of long-term happenings and repeat frustration from a fairly sizeable amount of people. These people ARE the site and without them it's nothing.
Out of the kindness our your heart :) I bet they didnt say "I need a script. Give it to me. Do it in c#, you cnut". Believe me, I've seen that.
Again, you're referring to the extreme. Just as you've seen question posters being very rude, I've seen potential answerers answering reasonable requests for code with "What you want us to write your code for you? You're never going to learn anything that way. Go and learn to code and then come back when you deserve to be here."
I see a lot of extreme answers to pretty mild questions. The frustrations of the moderators at UAs system should NOT be taken out on other users regardless of the extremes they have to deal with. And though you may not be like that, clearly many people have some idea that its ok to be like that. Grahams help for new users only serves to make this situation worse.
Literally don't comment with "Bump". Just click edit and submit.
Ok cool, but why does the point not say that? Why does the point say:
e) Don't bump posts. If no-one has answered it's because your question was too vague/confusing. Perhaps close your question and ask one that does make sense.
What I've written is in response to what those points say, not your softer interpretation.
Unity is a software that is very easy for new users to get to grips with, has a friendly UI
Common misconception. I struggled with it at first and I'm an Engineer
Not a misconception at all. I'm not an engineer and its the most fun with a computer I've ever had. Ok, its not as designer friendly as something like flash, but with enough code-snippets and tutorials, beginners can do great things.
$$anonymous$$y main point is that REGARDLESS of what frustrations moderators have, Graham's proposal for a welcome to new users has an unnecessarily rude tone. Yes, UA's for experienced people too. Well I don't consider myself a beginner anymore, but why do I find myself on the receiving end of general rudeness and cheeky comments to my questions? Because of the attitude in threads like this of people like Graham setting an example to other users that less experienced people are somehow beneath the veteran users and should be talked down to. I've had it time and again for very reasonable questions and I'm so frigging bored of it. I don't want to see cheeky little brats use the users of this website to take their frustrations out on. I just want to learn how to use Unity and this entire thread makes the situation worse.
$$anonymous$$aybe you can spot the difference between a lazy question and a good one but many moderators don't seem to want to. Sorry, I realise I've strayed from the topic but the attitude so many people have here make me hate this site.
Have a +1 for most insightful comments :)
Unfortunately, what comes across as rudeness is actually the general demeanor of the Computer Scientist :D
Also, when something is marked as community wiki, feel free to make changes.
When I'm active on the list, I spend a fair amount of time in the $$anonymous$$oderation queue. I guesstimate that around 25 questions are rejected for cause in any given 24 hour period. Some days more, some days less, but not a huge number. Personally I reject (and communicate the issues) for the following reasons:
Subject line does not reflect the content. A good subject line is essential to having other find the answers to the questions. I tend to send back questions with titles like "Help me!" and "What is wrong with my code." The comment is polite and explains the issue.
Code needs to be formatted. In the past I always formated code for the OP. If I was active in the $$anonymous$$oderation queue, I might fix 30 questions in a 12 hour period. But what I'm seeing know is the same people I fixed code for in the past are asking questions, answering questions and posting comments (without going through moderation since then now have 15 or more $$anonymous$$arma points) without formatting the code. So I'm thinking that I did the OPs and the List a disservice by formatting the code for the OP rather than send them back so the OP can learn the correct way to format their code. Now I tend to let any code through that is readable even if it has some issues, but anything that is largely unreadable is rejected.
$$anonymous$$ultiple questions. The format of Unity answers does not lend itself to multiple issues in a single UA question. I ask the OP to break the question into separate questions.
Discussion/Design question. I send these questions to the Unity Forums.
Not enough information. When a question is lacking critical info, I sent it back, usually with a list of the info that needs to be included.
Questions asking to write or find specific scripts. Note these are actually fairly infrequent. Typically in a 12 hour period there will be one or two, plus there will be a couple more that make it to the list. Note I believe they are infrequent because we reject or close these kinds of questions. $$anonymous$$y perception is that these question were more frequent in the past.
The perception that $$anonymous$$oderators send back huge numbers of questions or are rejecting beginner questions because they are frustrated is not true. There are a few frequently answered questions rejected, but they often include references or links to get the OP started.
There are rude answers and comments. I cringe when I see some of these, but in any given 'room' of technical people, there are going to be some that are abrupt and outspoken. That is as true in the real world as it is on this list.